Hi Steven (aka @yueh)

Thank you for taking the time to share your considered response.

I was struck by a couple references you made saying that these passages had nothing to do with false prophets or teachers. I agree, however never in the book do I allude to such, so I’m not certain as to why that seems to be the thrust of your response in those occurences.

In your article on the first chapter of Romans, you have referred to “Church Shepherds” a number of times, who is blind to the truth of scriptures, and use it to justify their bigotry for the sake of financial gain or political influence, and you seem to be reading Romans 1 on the basis of Paul is referring to the false teacher and prophets.

You also said God didn’t create gays or lesbians in His creation. However, Jesus would disagree with that, Who taught in Matthew 19:11-12 that indeed there are those who are whom He refers to as “born eunuchs.” They are neither castrated, nor celibate. For 1 thing, He covers those descriptions as well, and for another thing, neither castration nor celibacy are birth conditions, but rather are choices made outside the womb, either by oneself, or by others. These born eunuchs are not heterosexual, or they would not be exempted from heterosexual marriage, and Paul would not have instructed them to marry (each other) in 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 for purposes of maintaining sexual purity.

Let’s start by reading Matthew 19:10-12

¹⁰The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

¹¹But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given.

¹²For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

Matthew 19:10–12 (ESV)

Eunuchs here are those people who will not be able to have children, not to do with homosexuality. If you read the history of the Greco-Roman culture, most of the immoral sexual acts at the time are bisexual, so you can’t use this text to argue that God creates gays and lesbians. Also, if you say that God created gays and lesbians, verse 26 in Romans 1 pretty much close the case, the Word of God says that such behaviour is not natural; it is against nature as God has created it.

It’s also noteworthy that the men “gave up natural relations with women.” Only heterosexual men would be able to “give up” natural relations with women, and only if they had actually been with women (i.e. they were married). Gay men don’t have “natural relations with women to give up.” Therefore, I stand by the understanding I shared in The Bed Keeper that these were not even homosexual people being described, but were heterosexuals whose custom it was to engaged in same gender sexual expressions as acts of idol worship, especially to the fertility goddess. That is a violation of the First Commandment, “Thou shall have no other gods before Me.” Secondly, if they had previously been with women (most likely married), that is a violation of yet another of the Ten Commandments, “Thou shall not commit adultery.”

Again based on the biblical position, no one was born gay or lesbian, so your statement does not fit within my worldview. But I agree with your point on the first three commandments; it’s not just about a homosexual relationship; even a heterosexuals relationship can be counted as idol worship. If our mind was not fixed on Christ but our friendship, works, relationship, marriage, family…. they are all kinds of idol worship.

Far too many theologians attempt to portray Romans 1 as some kind of typical condition of the people being described, and attempt to portray gay people as bein guilty of all the same sins listed in verses 29-32, all the while missing the big picture of the violations of the Ten Commandments that were being disregarded. However, you are correct to say this is a parallel reflection of the Leviticus verses condemning the very same things: heterosexual married men engaging in acts of idolatry and adultery, and the bestial aspects of idol worship being committed by heterosexual women (who engaged in natural acts), but not with each other…..but with animals…..The translation you share here differs greatly from the phraseology used by Paul to describe the acts the women committed as differentiated from the acts committed by men in both the King James, and Amplified Translations.

I have replied to you using KJV, and I don’t have an issue with using any literal translation as long as it is not paraphrased. Also, the textual differences in Romans 1 are minimal between the Textus Receptus and the UBS Greek text, so I am happy to use KJV.

I want to expand here on why Paul singled out homosexuals in Romans 1. Take a closer look at Leviticus 18:

¹And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

²Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.

³After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

⁴Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.

⁵Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

⁶None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

⁷The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

⁸The nakedness of thy father’s wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father’s nakedness.

⁹The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

¹⁰The nakedness of thy son’s daughter, or of thy daughter’s daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.

¹¹The nakedness of thy father’s wife’s daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

¹²Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s sister: she is thy father’s near kinswoman.

¹³Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother’s sister: for she is thy mother’s near kinswoman.

¹⁴Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.

¹⁵Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son’s wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

¹⁶Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother’s wife: it is thy brother’s nakedness.

¹⁷Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son’s daughter, or her daughter’s daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.

¹⁸Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.

¹⁹Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.

²⁰Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour’s wife, to defile thyself with her.

²¹And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

²²Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

²³Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

²⁴Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

²⁵And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

²⁶Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

²⁷(For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)

²⁸That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

²⁹For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

³⁰Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 18:1–30 (AV)

As you can see here, homosexual and sexual relationships with animals are in the bottom list of the sexual laws given by God, it is the worst case of sexual immorality, and Paul wants to describe the depth of the fall of the human race, he is not here to attack those people who suffer in this condition, he had given all human race a warning on what will happen when we moved away from God. He also went to the homosexual community to know there is a greater love outside of their community, seek the love of Christ and repent their sins.

Finally, as most theologians, you left off the next three verses of Scripture:

The last three verses are pretty straightforward, so I let the text speak for itself.

²⁹Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Romans 1:29 (AV)

Unrighteousness includes fornication (sexual immorality), wickedness, and covetousness, which removes God from our thinking. Once God is out of our lives, we become envious, leading some to murder, strife, cheat, plan evil deeds, and whisper those evil plans.

³⁰Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Romans 1:30 (AV)

Back talker, which I have to say many Christians do just that. Hater of God (Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens….), violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things (not just weapon, but also in Atheist writing, drama, music….), and disobedient to parents, which can be seen in our days.

³¹Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Romans 1:31 (AV)

….. the list never ends

³²Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Romans 1:32 (AV)

Paul summarises the chapter by saying that all these wicked and sinful acts will only result in eternal destruction; without repentance, we try to establish our own moral and ethical rules rather than follow what is natural. Some people even take it further supporting them.

THEREFORE YOU have no excuse or defense or justification, O man, whoever you are who judges and condemns another. For in posing as judge and passing sentence on another, you condemn yourself, because you who judge are habitually practicing the very same things [that you censure and denounce].

Sorry, I have not yet judged anyone; it is the Word of God that judges people, and I am just referring to it.

[But] we know that the judgment (adverse verdict, sentence) of God falls justly and in accordance with truth upon those who practice such things.

Yes, so what are you going to do about it after reading the Word of our God? Are you going to continue supporting what is wrong and sinful in God’s eyes, or will you repent your sins?

And do you think or imagine, O man, when you judge and condemn those who practice such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape God’s judgment and elude His sentence and adverse verdict? Romans 2:1-3

Only God can judge us, but for the case of biblical base support for gays and lesbians, I am willing to take my stand and say you are wrong, and you should repent and reach out to the gay and lesbian community by sharing the true gospel, you should not be ashamed of the truth (Romans 1:16). You are worse than me because you judge God based on your fallen condition. Pray to our Savior, and ask Him to help you and guide you.